tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-630346294397505634.post7668525551985011805..comments2024-03-28T07:00:12.226-04:00Comments on Romance Novels for Feminists: Sex Roles in and out of Bed: Victoria Dahl's START ME UPJackie C. Hornehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04146684628443152376noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-630346294397505634.post-69846243407078154182012-10-22T10:04:17.365-04:002012-10-22T10:04:17.365-04:00More wondering out loud...
JW, I like your observ...More wondering out loud...<br /><br />JW, I like your observation that we don't argue or bicker with people to whom we are not close (unless we're total jerks, of course...) . I've thought for a long time that arguing with someone is a sign of how close one is to that person -- I argue with you because I trust you enough to know that you won't see my anger or aggression as the whole truth of me; I can let down my guard with you. I'm thinking about the idea of teasing, too, that teasing is pleasurable as long as it is intended not to hurt or degrade the other, but to poke fun at our inevitable human frailties. <br /><br />On the other hand, though, much of the fighting between romance characters (those who haven't yet accepted one another, grown to know each other well) seems to be about defense -- fighting to push someone away, arguing to protect one's own vulnerabilities. As you start to know someone better, you get to know what their vulnerabilities are, and you can poke at them to push someone away. Perhaps "bickering" is just throwing insults at someone when they have no basis in fact, no relation to that person's actual personality or character?Jackie C. Hornehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04146684628443152376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-630346294397505634.post-83883494456805405762012-10-22T01:34:37.168-04:002012-10-22T01:34:37.168-04:00I don't know that I do draw a line between bic...I don't know that I do draw a line between bickering and productive arguments. I find that the bickering and arguing I do with friends, lovers, and family is almost always productive in some way: clearing the air, clarifying feelings and actions, etc. On the other hand, I do not bicker at work or with people I am not close to, thinking that it would prove pointless and, ultimately, not worth. So perhaps you are right that there is a sign of increased frustration, related to increased concern. Still, it makes me consider the role of aggression, violence, and yes, even, bickering in our concepts of romantic love and even our sense that romance, heat, passion, and--again, even bickering, are apart of love. No answers or anything. Just wondering out loud.<br />JW Ashleyhttp://www.bookswithbenefits.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-630346294397505634.post-37844322427728262622012-09-28T16:47:55.991-04:002012-09-28T16:47:55.991-04:00I don't find that line offensive at all. Some ...I don't find that line offensive at all. Some people need to lighten up.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-630346294397505634.post-89180173395843779212012-09-26T20:30:01.166-04:002012-09-26T20:30:01.166-04:00I like the distinction: bickering is being argumen...I like the distinction: bickering is being argumentative because you're insecure and/or immature; debating (or perhaps verbally sparring?) is being argumentative from strength, or self-confidence, in yourself and/or in the relationship.<br /><br />Makes me want to sit down and watch Nick and Nora Charles in THE THIN MAN...Jackie C. Hornehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04146684628443152376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-630346294397505634.post-23330728947279918492012-09-26T18:34:49.242-04:002012-09-26T18:34:49.242-04:00I probably did kick back, yes.
Where adults are c...I probably did kick back, yes.<br /><br />Where adults are concerned, I think a bit of verbal fencing as a way of exploring the power dynamics between a couple or because the couple enjoy the intellectual challenge involved in debating or making witty comments is quite different from "bickering." To me, "bickering" just comes off as childish: I take your point about people feeling uncomfortable with vulnerability but I don't think it's very mature to attack preemptively by calling someone names, for example, or denigrating their appearance.Laura Vivancohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00906661869372622821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-630346294397505634.post-40981949082847328462012-09-26T17:57:06.563-04:002012-09-26T17:57:06.563-04:00Hi, Laura:
Did you kick back? ;-)
I think the co...Hi, Laura:<br /><br />Did you kick back? ;-)<br /><br />I think the comparison is intriguing. Boys (and some girls) act aggressively toward their "love object" because they don't understand/can't deal with the emotions having such a love object evokes (vulnerability to someone else; sexual desire that may not be fulfilled). Grownups aren't allowed to hit each other, but verbal sparring is usually allowed. It signals the same fear/worry -- discomfort about potentially being vulnerable.<br />Jackie C. Hornehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04146684628443152376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-630346294397505634.post-87678213356852619332012-09-26T16:43:01.039-04:002012-09-26T16:43:01.039-04:00Hi, J.W.
Thanks for checking out the blog, and fo...Hi, J.W.<br /><br />Thanks for checking out the blog, and for your comments. I'm looking forward to adding your blog to the list of ones I follow.<br /><br />What in particular do you think Dahl attempts but doesn't achieve?<br /><br />I'm not sure I agree that the book sends the message that bickering means love. Bickering in the book seems more a sign of frustration over differing expectations, frustrations that increase when you begin to care more deeply for the one with whom you bicker.<br /><br />What's the line for you between bickering and having a productive argument?<br /><br />Do you think bickering will be nonexistent in a misogyny-free culture?<br /><br />Jackie C. Hornehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04146684628443152376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-630346294397505634.post-89029070254912599062012-09-26T12:15:00.842-04:002012-09-26T12:15:00.842-04:00Still, though it's Molly (and the patriarchy, ...<i>Still, though it's Molly (and the patriarchy, perhaps) that are ultimately right. Bickering does mean love. That idea doesn't start me up... Should it?</i><br /><br />That idea reminds me of primary school, when a boy kicking you under the table probably meant he was really, really interested in you.Laura Vivancohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00906661869372622821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-630346294397505634.post-62023304774754486332012-09-26T01:14:43.419-04:002012-09-26T01:14:43.419-04:00I have to say... that opening line when I read it ...I have to say... that opening line when I read it a few months ago was jotted down as one of my least favorite lines in romance fiction. I don't know that it helped that it was uttered by another women. I do know that no amount of knowing that Dahl's reversal of expectations served a feminist purpose made the line work for me. I enjoyed much of the rest of the book. And I approve of much of what she attempts--not the least of which is her making Molly an erotica writer. On the other hand, I don't know that she achieves as much as she attempts. My blog recently reviewed a number of her books. What we liked about this book was that Dahl is at her best when she irreverently pokes fun at herself. When Molly tries to advise Lori that Quinn’s angry bickering is a sign of love, she says: ”Use your brain. You read romance novels all the time. What are the most obvious signs of true love? Drama! Arguments! Tension!” Lori answers back, “Those are also the most obvious signs of domestic abuse.” Still, though it's Molly (and the patriarchy, perhaps) that are ultimately right. Bickering does mean love. That idea doesn't start me up... Should it?JW Ashleyhttp://www.bookswithbenefits.comnoreply@blogger.com